The Internet Organization of China’s New Generation of Nationalists

The website Anti-CNN was launched in 2008 by a group of young Chinese students, led by Rao Jin, who was dissatisfied with the biased and distorted reporting of China by Western media. In 2009, former CNN Beijing Bureau chief Rebecca MacKinnon had an interesting conversation with the group of young Chinese behind Anti-CNN. She said ‘it will be very interesting to see how the Anti-CNN website continues to evolve,’ and that ‘Rao Jin has plans to develop an English-language platform – with a less provocative, more friendly name – through which his community can engage in dialogue and debate with the English-speaking world.’

Indeed, Anti-CNN has evolved three years on. The website no longer exists. In its place is April Web, which also comes with an English platform. They describe themselves as carrying across ‘the vision of the youth and Chinese identity while engaging in issues of global concerns,’ and ‘a media platform to meet and encourage healthy, constructive, and progressive minds for empowerment.’

At Radio France International, commentator Kai Wen has a recent piece about the group of young people behind April Web, labelled as China’s new generation of nationalists. Below is a full translation of the article.

Translation

After the Lhasa riots on 14 March 2008, a website called ‘Anti-CNN’ appeared in China. It heavily criticized the bias of the Western media while reporting on China, and won a wide following among young people. Subsequently, on 19 April, the Chinese communities in Paris, London, Berlin and Los Angeles held mass gatherings with the theme of ‘Supporting the Beijing Olympics, Opposing Media Unfairness’. This marked the beginning of a new generation of Chinese nationalists, and ‘April Youth’ has since then became their symbol.

Three years later, many of those who joined the mass gatherings have lost their political enthusiasm and returned to normal life. But not for ‘April Youth’. Quite the contrary, it has become more organized and institutionalised thanks to the internet.

Today, Anti-CNN, which was built by Tsinghua University graduate Rao Jin no longer exists. Its successor is ‘April Web’. Rao Jin is still the core member. He is surrounded by more than twenty like-minded young people, who manage an array of media including April Web, April Space, April Media, April Youth Forum and April Miniblog. Although its Chinese brand name is now called ‘April’, it is not difficult to find the ‘AC’ logo in its forums and spaces, reminding visitors of its Anti-CNN root.

It seems that this group of young people are outliers in the current Chinese system. On surface, by being administrators of a non-official website which relies on revenues from server hostings, they do not depend on the official system. But at the same time, they fiercely defend criticisms directed at the current system, ranging from issues like US foreign policy to German media reporting practices, and from the Wangfujing ‘Jasmine’ protests to the disappearance of Ai Weiwei.

These people are not mobs. In fact, much of the content managing team belong to the post-80s generation, most with undergraduate degrees, some even with Masters, PhDs or overseas study experience in Europe and the US. At the same time, among the major authors for the website, some have deep exposures to French culture, and others are even scholars teaching in overseas universities. But their broad knowledge and the fact that they are outside the officialdom do not prevent them from becoming staunch defenders of the ruling order.

Such paradoxical mentality is perhaps partially explained by a declaration published in April Media earlier this year. The declaration, called ‘History will Remember the April Youth of 2008’, said that ‘this generation of overseas student often struggles and competes alone. As individual overseas students, the difficulties, setbacks, discrimination, repulsion and hostility they face abroad far exceed those they face at home […] As they try in vain to integrate into the core circles of mainstream societies overseas, to develop and realize their dreams, they start to miss the motherland. And the rapid and miraculous development of China presents tremendous attraction for them. The inevitable consequence is the return of the overseas student community to racial and national identity.’

Like what the author said, this generation of young people eats hamburgers, wears Nike, watches NBA and listens with iPod. Spiritually and materially, they are a globalized generation without any precedents. But deep down, they are at a lost and nervous. Such illusions amid affluence, when combined with selective amnesia under the national education, create a longing for utopia, and an argument for the legitimacy of the political system. In the above-mentioned declaration, the author quoted Mao Zedong, ‘we must be prepared to take the blind alley, and to hurry on after walking though it!’ In another declaration, a young scholar from a famous law school in Beijing said in a Maoist tone, ‘we will discuss about the world order and offer our prescriptions in passionate words […] The Western-centric knowledge system is increasingly at odds with our experience. Let’s reconstruct the world’s image and embrace a wider world.’

Such trends are not only found in these declarations, but also in many aspects of the April Web. Looking at one of its most unique and emphasized video, which features Sima Nan, Sima Pingbang, Wang Xiaodong and Kong Qingdong, you cannot but wonder how a website labelling itself as representing the ‘Youth’s Vision’ could be so similar to Utopia Village (wuyouzhixiang), a leftist and Maoist website. In just three years, the newly emerging nationalists have merged with the generation ten or even twenty years older.

The evidence of this merging could also be found in the post-80s generation’s Global Times style of reasoning. Shortly after the disappearance of Ai Weiwei, the April Web has quickly shoot a three-episode interview series, ‘Onlooking Ai Weiwei’. The respective themes are ‘Anti-Chinese Arts are Darlings of the West’, ‘If Ai Weiwei and the Likes Succeed, China will be Worse’, and ‘Bashing China and Beautifying the West are just Business as Usual’.

‘April Youth’ defends Tsinghua University in the controversies surrounding a call for Tsinghua students to be party loyalists. Tsinghua student Jiang Fangzhou, also belonging to the post-80s generation, critically likened her fellows as ‘worldly cadres without independent thinking’ in a letter to the university. She illustrated the absurd situation in China’s higher education institutions with Wei Guo, a young student aspiring to enter the Central Propaganda Department in Chen Guanzhong’s novel, The Fat Years: China, 2013. They ‘are not unconcerned, only that they willingly defend the government – like defending treasures they are going to inherit.’

As always, inheritance is where family arguments stem from. Jiang Fangzhou’s concern may be a reflection of the conspiracy theories surrounding the fight for the inheritance. And it remains to be seen whether the ‘April Youth’ in these ‘fat years’ are really a bunch of idealists.

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0 thoughts on “The Internet Organization of China’s New Generation of Nationalists”

  1. @Pug_ster – The fact that you’d lift a quote from the New York Times and show it as an example of something the “Western Media” didn’t want to cover! Oh, that’s just priceless!

    Oh, and I note, you haven’t provided any evidence that either Bin Laden or his group received any support from the US. If this is something so significant as to be worth mention in his obituary, and so easily substantiated that failure to mention it is evidence of bias, why can’t you give evidence for it?

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  2. @MAC, FOARP

    MAC, obviously, you sounded upset when you don’t like the way I spell, or capitalize words. I am dismissive of FOARP’s statement because he didn’t really say anything new besides “there’s no proof” statement. Geez, unless the US government release some top secret information about the relationship between Bin Laden, we will never know and I don’t have any proof. If you’re not convinced, that’s your prerogative, but I don’t buy the fairy tale of CIA not helping Bin Laden to fight the Soviets.

    MAC,
    Where I say there was some kind of cover up about the Cambodia/US issue? FOARP is making the speculation of why the US media wasn’t critical of China’s role of Pol Pot’s regime and I responded with the US connection. We all know that the Western countries was arming and training the Khmer Rouge so they can fight Vietnam, but FOARP didn’t exactly point that out.

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  3. @FOARP: To be fair, that quote is all over the place, he more likely got it from Wikipedia than the NYT. It originates from pg. 435 of the book When the War was Over: Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge Revolution.

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  4. I just wrote a really wrong post recapping the implicit logic of the last dozen or so posts, but you know what, fuck it. Cover-up/glossing over/downplaying, call it what you want, it seems pretty clear what you were trying to say. At least as clear as it ever is with you. It’s a ridiculous tangent anyway.

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  5. @Pugster –

    “Geez, unless the US government release some top secret information about the relationship between Bin Laden, we will never know and I don’t have any proof. If you’re not convinced, that’s your prerogative, but I don’t buy the fairy tale of CIA not helping Bin Laden to fight the Soviets.”

    Oh my god, you’re not serious are you? You see, I’m not saying that you need to cite CIA documents. I’m saying you need to cite any primary source or credible secondary source of any kind. I’m saying that if you want to say something is true, you first need to have some source to rely on. I’m saying that just because you feel like it’s true doesn’t make it so.

    See, what you were saying in your original comments was that the “western media” are biased because they didn’t point out the US-Bin Laden connection. I pointed out that there was no evidence of any connection. Simply put, you cannot be called biased for not publishing something as true, or even allegedly true, if there was never any evidence for it in the first place.

    You seem to think that the mere fact that there is no evidence for something whatsoever should not only not prevent people asserting it as true, but that people who don’t assert that it is true omit to do so because they are biased. This is insane.

    When it comes right down to it, this line of reasoning boils down to the one thing you said which is true:

    “I don’t have any proof”

    You don’t. You shouldn’t assert that something is true if you have no evidence for it. It’s that simple.

    As for Cambodia/China, my point is that even if the same connection exist between Bin Laden and the US that existed between China and Pol Pot, this still wouldn’t justify accusing “western” news outlets that omitted to mention the connection of doing so out of pro-US anti-China bias.

    None of the so-called “anti-China” outlets mentioned the Pol Pot/China link except very briefly. Were these outlets as biased as you accuse them of being, they would have surely drawn the link between China and this notorious mass-murder whose insanity was inspired by that of the Mao regime. Yet the China/Pol Pot connection is easily shown just by looking at Pol Pot’s career, the source of the Khmer Rouge’s weapons, official announcements at the time, and the 1979 invasion of Vietnam by China in an effort to relieve the Khmer Rouge.

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  6. @DSLAM on May 2, 2011 at 11:33

    Western media organizations somehow conspiring to trick everyone into hating China or trying to get the USA to declare war on China and it is just utter nonsense.

    1) It is too simply far from all the war were declared in USA. They were just launched secretly. Sometimes, even the attacked country don’t know just a war exist, they just saw the dead body and don’t know why. I myself ever believed what CCP said US instigate the Tibet riot until 2008, because I trusted Western sources instead of CCP. Now I understand what happens because, in this age of Internet, many victims can post with their own experience with photograph and also we can access western media to make a comparison.

    War does not necessarily means deploy US army and soldiers died like Iraq. Employ unemployed people or former criminal to kill undeclared enemy or even innocent civilians is one kind of a hidden war. If you don’t like the word war, I can called some action that make the same damage of a war. PSYOP that make audience to believe killing innocent into a justified protest is a part of war. What we have experienced in 2008 and 2009 is a typical PSYOP. In fact I learned this term from some westerners that tried to help China in the m4 site during that time.

    911 attack is an other this type of action, but in US it is called war. The number of our victims was even more than that in 911. We have already experienced the war and will experience more even it was never declared and most of Chinese don’t know it is a secret war.

    There is a book written by a retired senior CIA officer, “The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet”. This war was never declared by US gov. officially. There are also some CIA documents that released to public that confirmed what they did in 50s.

    Sometimes, even US presidents do not know the war had been launched. Back to Bay of Pigs, Pr. Kennedy did not know what CIA was really doing there. Even Jr. Bush does not seem like a very nice man, I strongly suspect the Tibet riot was not instigated under his order. But apparently he knew what was going on and his reaction was very strange for many Americans, he did not join the China punching as many other western politicians.

    2) Here is a document film “the war that you don’t see”
    , made by a group of British journalists. You don’t have to trust them, but in the case they are right, the secret war launched by CIA and MP6 has already killed at 1 million people in the word elsewhere than China. (because they can only occasionally know something that did not keep well in secret, unfortunately not including China)

    The film was in English although with caption in Chinese.
    http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/00_rFBhQoO0/

    According to them, and it is far from all the western journalists who knew they are taking part the wars by making lies. However when some of them discovered what they were really doing, it is every of them don’t want to reveal it. However, in current western system, But only few of such revealing could reach general public.

    It the file, it is the conclusion of Assange that the secret/declared wars have been run constantly, exactly like my nonsense. But I got same conclusion far before I knew Wikileaks because we experience similar things in China

    I know you don’t trust CCP propaganda machine. In fact I don’t trust more than you. But there are much more western sources that confirms my nonsense, other than ones above.

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  7. IMO, nationalism is a weapon of software. Weapon can be used both for self defense and aggress others. When others use this weapon to aggress you, it would be a suicide if you don’t own this weapon. In the other hand, it is also a dangerous weapon that might be utilized by some evil guys to violate someone that never intend to harm you.

    US has a much strong nationalism than China, meanwhile their media demand China to give up any nationalism. The m4 website indeed promote nationalism after the Tibet and Xinjiang massacre, but as far as I can see, it is not more than self defense.

    In the other side, does the nationalism in US exclusively used for purpose of self defense?

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  8. Zhao Fengnian,

    You seem like a guy who’s reasonable enough to change his mind and good enough to make an effort, but your effort needs some consolidation. If you’re going to make mention of the Dali Lama ordering the skinning of children (I posted on this earlier), or secret wars uncovered by wikileaks, you’re going to have to present solid sources. Since you’re posting here I presume you’ve got a VPN (if you’re in China) and so you’re able to access the necessary sites. In any case you’re not going to surprise anyone by saying the CIA has been involved in secret wars. This is common knowledge, this is the kind of crap that has documentaries made about it and gets played on channel 1 in my home country on a weekday night. You’re not shocking anyone.

    Nationalism is the sensation of being superior to other countries by virtue of having been born there. It might be useful for helping a population dump their critical thinking so their governments can pass action which would otherwise be couldn’t be, but I can’t exactly call lobotomizing a nation a good thing. Nationalism in ANY circumstance is indefensible. BTW your statement about nationalistic sentiment in the US being stronger than China is both unprovable and very dubious.

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  9. FOARP,

    God, can you give your rant about “I don’t have any proof already” a rest? I can not directly prove that Bin Laden was colluding with the CIA in Afghanistan than you can prove that China was directly helping with Cambodia. Unless you have some top secret Chinese government papers showing it.

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  10. @zhao fengnian

    US has a much strong nationalism than China

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Well, maybe in some odd ways, yes. But to me it seems the Chinese have a much stronger sort of nationalism that is more race based. To me it seems essentially racist. For example can you imagine the Chinese allowing immigration of white people and letting them hold power like being a governor or something? (and dont say because there are too many people because that is avoiding the argument) I don’t. Maybe in the future, I dont know.

    …meanwhile their media demand China to give up any nationalism.

    There’s that conspiracy streak again. As if all Western media are one unified mind with the sole purpose of hurting China etc. It’s just demonstrably untrue and simplistic.

    Nationalism usually makes me sick. When I see it come from conservatives in the US it sickens me and embarrasses me. When I see it from China it sickens me. When I see it from Arabs, Koreans, Indians, Dutch, Japanese, whoever, it sickens me.
    It’s almost always race based and full of fear mongering and I hate it where ever I see it.

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  11. @Pugster – That’s where you’re mind-bendingly wrong. Let’s do a little compare/contrast –

    Facts supporting US support of Bin Laden: Zero.

    Facts showing that China supported Pol Pot’s Cambodia:

    1) The Khmer Rouge Government in exile were based in Beijing before their 1975 capture of Phnom-Penh

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917186-2,00.html

    2) China’s leader’s literally said they supported Pol Pot

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,948686-2,00.html

    3) Can you find a credibly sourced picture of Reagan or Bush warmly shaking hands with Bin Laden? Because I’ve got one of Mao chilling with the Khmer Rouge

    http://tuku.history.china.com/history/html/2005-09-15/2024241_753694312.htm

    No doubt you’re going to come back with something on Saddam or something, and that’s OK. Either that or you’re going to try to attack my sources, and that’s OK too.

    Just so long as you realise that you were actually talking nonsense about OBL and the US, and then doubled down on it. In the process you made a total fool out of yourself by claiming that you don’t actually need to even be able to offer even some proof of something before accusing others of being biased for not mentioning it.

    So the difference is this:

    I have sources which support what I’ve said, either directly (the photo) or as secondary sources (the Time magazine articles).

    You haven’t shown any proof. You’ve said that you don’t need proof. This is pure foolishness.

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  12. BTW Chinese involvement in Cambodia is also quite provable, especially after the recent trials.

    This is from the U.S. Library of Congress: http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/61.htm

    But if you don’t take the U.S.’s word for it I’m sure you can find admissions of involvement from the Khmer Rouge trials by CCP representatives and a bunch of other stuff. Heck – I even found an official report to congress over US involvement in Cambodia (regime funding in the form of aid and weapons deals).

    You know you can find out all sorts of things these days – even the (very very detailed) records of the cultural revolution and the Tienanmen incident are available to researchers providing you have the right credentials and prove you’re not going to use them to do any significant defamation of the CCP.

    Take another 5 mins and I wouldn’t be surprised if you could find CIA docs on involvement in Tibet. The ease of which you can get these quite embarrassing documents is the reason why I really don’t buy the “CIA killed a million Chinese” doco that Zhao Fengnian posted earlier. The US govt is really a very porous system and anything big like that is sure to have leaks, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it really did happen that the US govt would actually fess up over it. Declassify docs on supplying arms to a regime which essentially committed autogenocide and nobody takes any notice, but I’m sure the same data would have been a PR disaster if it were a leaked secret.

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  13. @brightgrey
    You seem like a guy who’s reasonable enough to change his mind and good enough to make an effort, but your effort needs some consolidation. If you’re going to make mention of the Dali Lama ordering the skinning of children (I posted on this earlier), or secret wars uncovered by wikileaks, you’re going to have to present solid sources.

    If I am going sue US or anyone for their war crime, I certainly have to provide all the evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, which means I have to have resources at least as much or as a lawyer or journalist that can collect all of them.

    As someone that can only write about this at weekend because no one pay me to do so, this means a tremendous amount of work, if not taking months full time work, at least as much as thesis for a master degree or even more, also, it require space. I was congratulated to write the longest posts here but that is even not enough to write 0.1% of what evidence should be presented. If this really makes any impact that prevents the disaster happen to my folks again, I would certainly devote my time and energy to do it. Can I expect the impact?

    Even I don’t present the solid evidence myself, that does not mean all the evidence could not be found by some one who is interested to do so. The skins and the order paper of Dalai Lama is being preserved in a Museum that is accessible for anyone who visit (for brainwash purpose or not). If any westerner request Chinese gov. to help them find it, they would love to do. I have to admit I don’t understand Tibetan text, but I am sure that there are neutral experts exist that can help them to figure out whether the evidence are true of fake, based on my assumption that CCP would not be stupid enough to make a fake document to be discovered as an example how they lies.

    There are also resources, such as travel notes from tourists before CCP regime took over Tibet that can confirm those CCP evidence. In fact, I tried to present these sources to Wikipedia after spending long time to collect and confirm them, and the results is all my jobs were deleted and my IP was blocked. I was so frustrated that I did not make efforts to save the material when I changed my computer.I could certainly spend time to recollect them, but what impact could it make? Any one in the West could help to prevent the tragedy after my hard work? Any way, I sure they could be in the library and CCP quoted them frequently at least during the riot. I simply don’t believe there are no western journalists that have no interest to prove it is true or fake.

    I also believe western media would love to find fake evidence made by CCP, since they have a great passion to report what and how CCP lies. However, instead of telling the information and prove they are fakes, they chose to completely ignore them, or perhaps, IMP, block them. Are those photograph I showed to you not interested enough to reveal how CCP lies or Dalai Lama might different from what westerners believed?

    In this “nationalist” anti-cnn website, during the Tibet riot, there too many people, including people from the west, who contributed to provide the origins of various resources, which is possible for any neutral person to check whether we are making lies, rumors or provide true information. Look at this article we are discussing, if the author really find we are promoting sensation that make Chinese superior than others, isn’t it a more powerful argument just telling we are making false photograph, or CCP took skins of babies to slander Dalai Lama? What argument he is using to prove our “nationalism” instead?

    At this moment, I offer to spend time to find out where to contact the relevant department of Chinese government that can provide more sources than myself.

    More than that, if anyone who sincerely have interest to seriously instigate what the fact is, I offer to help to find the access of victims or their family members. In this internet age, I am sure I can do it if I call for help on the anti-cnn website even it might take time.

    This is common knowledge, this is the kind of crap that has documentaries made about it and gets played on channel 1 in my home country on a weekday night. You’re not shocking anyone.

    More than trying to shock anyone, I presented the documentary for proving I am not alone who made the “nonsense”, as a reply to some one denying USA always try to launch war to make money for the profit groups.

    Making riots under excuses of promoting democracy is not shocking you because the human life of those killed victims means nothing to you. But it means quite something for Iraqis, Libyans, in the case of China for me and most Chinese. For the family members of victims, it means heart-breaking and tears that you don’t bother to have. For me it means a lot of worrying of my friends and fears that one day the same thing might happen to my own family members. It also means for those civilians in the same minority ethnic group of the murders. The force behind them tried to make us hate each other, and hatred grows to a certain extent, it would lead terrible revenge to those who are not innocent from the same group of the murders.

    Caring values of human life mercy on innocent victims is the basis of peace. Countless bloody war occurs in this world because such mercy does not exist among the war mangers.

    It is not all people in the country where the war mangers come from benefit from their wars, especially in this age of nuclear bomb, but often quite opposit. If you are not so sure that you can benefit from all the unnecessary wars launched publicly and secretly, you’d be shocked on what happened in the Iraq, Alphanistan or somewhere I am not so aware of.

    BTW, if it is common knowledge that Western media often take part in propaganda for war mangers, why my opinion was immediately regarded as paranoid and nonsense in the first place?

    If it is a common knowledge that the western journalist are not so concerned enough about millions lost their family members from war that west brought to them, that they have to tell the truth, why you are so sure they sincerely care about abused human right in China and those so-called suffereing ethnic?

    If killing of tens of thousands innocent people is not schocking any one in West, what is shocking that so-call human right is abused in China? Do they really want Chinese people live happier under their help while they don’t care about how Iraqis cried in their homeland?

    If it turns out reports about Iraq/Afghanistan war is not reliable, how are sure that report about China is truth, only truth, nothing but truth.

    Nationalism is the sensation of being superior to other countries by virtue of having been born there. It might be useful for helping a population dump their critical thinking so their governments can pass action which would otherwise be couldn’t be, but I can’t exactly call lobotomizing a nation a good thing. Nationalism in ANY circumstance is indefensible.

    Perhaps my English is too poor to understand these terms. After 911, every corner in the world broadcast see Americans crying for the victims, showing angers to the terrorists so on. What’s name to describe this phenomenon? I don’t think most American feel sorrows, angers and fears because they think they are superior than others. Perhaps the west use patriotic?

    We Chinese experience the same disastor, even in a larger scale, by the same type of Islam extremists. When we show are same type of sorrow, angers and fears, why western media change to word “nationalism” that might imply something evil? When posted the photographs of victims, tears of the their mothers, angers about how western media report differently from what really happens and block all the information that might lead different conclusions, does that means we are trying to grow a sensation that Chinese are superior than others?

    If USA think their emotion of sorrow and angers for the victims and killings perfectly normal, but Chinese don’t have right to have the same feeling when they encouter the similar disaster, who regards themself as superior people than others? From the exactly same phenomenon, it is labeled positive patriotism to Americans and negative/evil nationalism to Chinese. Is it an implication that western media don’t regards Chinese as equal human being as Americans?

    The organization who committed Xinjiang massacre in July 2009, was declared as terrorists by USA short after 911 because they were trained by al Qaeda. US army even captured at least two of them in Alphanistan and jailed guantanamo, which implies US gov. know exactly what kind of terroirists. They were also suspected to committ terrorism in China so Chinese gov. request to extradit them after US release them. However, US refused under excuase Chinese violated their human right. US gov. don’t want to keep these dangerous guy in US, instead, according Wikileaks cables, push Switsland, Brazil, Germany and many other allien coutries to accept them as refugee so that they can continue their “fighting for freedom”. NED even publically pay them. What else conclusion one can get other than these US elites want the same type terrorists of 911 to make an other in China? What else can one conclude they want support criminals to innocent people in one group in order to instigate hatred between the two groups so tha hopfully ethnic conflicts spread all over China?

    I learned the nationlism (that is equivalent to patriotic in USA) in China from the liberals including Liu Xiao Bo, in China. It was much later I know all of them without exception received spornser ship from Western “human right” org. They tought Chinese pulbic that Nationalsim is a phenomone that people in a nation want to build their own country and love their own nations more than others. For example people in the colony want to expell the colonists and build an independent coutries are typical nationalists, which apparently including both Gandi, IRA and Nazi. If this is the real definition of nationalism, there is no doubt all the patriotic emotions in US after 911 are nationlism. However, USA or West are an exception from this definition.

    Those “human right” activists further preach, as you do, that such natinalism has been an origin of all the wars and conflict in the world, which I don’t think it is completely wrong. But further more, the peace prize winner Liu Xiao Bo, preached in a interview in Hong Kong that, western cololism is the neccssary driving force of democracy and freedom and China must become colony of the West for three hundred years in order to develop modern civilization. Some one post the original source of his speech shortly after he won the Nobel Peace Prize in the anti-cnn forum a few month ago, so that I can easily find and provide the confirmable source.

    There are many dissidents in China but apparently this guy is most favored than others by the western human right origanziations, as shown by his prize. Altough he did not vocal western colonism any more that might result more disaster in public relation in China , he indeed constantly support and praise the US liberation for people in Iraq and Afghanistan, namely the wars, that in his opinion brought freedom and democracy to the two countries, even long after the scaandal of prisoner abuse was revealed. (In think I can find the source from Guardians report that was quoted in the Anti-CNN). He urges these libarations should the models that the West will bring all other “dictator coutries”, of course, the most he wanted is China that he “loves” so much.

    I am almost sure, like the other pacists Dalai Lama who consumed human skin in his young ages, the Nobel Prize Commitee must have forget to mention all these remarkable carrer in the speech at his prize-giving ceremony even I did know really watch video on Youtube. Anyway, even he was under custody our lovely CCP authority, we perceive him as a puppet employed by some Western organiztions, more than a same type of peace maker as the yet-to-be-trialed Priviat Manning, while we are fully aware that the labels go the other way arround in USA, ie Manning is more regarded a criminal and Liu Xiao Bo is a peace maker.

    Nationalism or not, we are not promoting Chinese to feel superior than any other countries, although the report from Ridio France label us this way. It is true we love people in our country more than others, for example I feel less sorrow to the poor Iraqi victims comparing to my own brothers. But same thing happened in USA, when they care more for the victims in 911 than the killed civilians in Iraq. It is also true we hate the terrorists as much as American people did in 911. However, our media has never urge to declare a war to revenge anyone, even not mention any revenge. All we hoped or promoted is to prevent the same thing happen again, including most of us support our government, no matter we heartfeltly love them or not, to build stronger defense force to prevent similar attack happen again,. If this is nationalistic sentiment, it is certainly much stronger in USA.

    So far, I rarely found this kind of patriotism/nationalism, what even you called, among Chinese is more than self defense. I acknowledge it might develop to something much mores after the hatred grows and accumulated in future, however there is no way to stop the dangerous development by victims and supporting the murders, and their purpose is certainly not to stop it by the western media, in opposite they are provoking the hatred and dangerous nationalism that might be utilized as an excuse of, from increase military budgets to a possible war for money-making for arm company or whatever other than promoting peace and human right.

    If loving victims and anger toward murders is nationalism, there is nothing wrong for me as far as it does not harm any innocent people in other countries. Jews feel sorrows for the victims killed and blame Nazi, American blamed the murder of 911 attack, why Chinese can not have the right to do the same thing? Is Chinese a lower human race that doesn’t deserve to be treated equally? Why China don’t have right to have this weapon of software for self defense while USA constantly use the same thing to invade other countries every a few years? Who is the one who think they are superior than other human race?

    BTW your statement about nationalistic sentiment in the US being stronger than China is both unprovable and very dubious

    I am not shocked by this statement at all. We have people volunteer forward many western major stream media source that reported our so-called nationalism, including this translated article (that is why I, someone whose English skill might be better than most people in China, come here), which I regarded as a typical example how lies is being made in western media, with a little further speculation, that support their invented China-threaten, in a pretty similar way as the invented threatens of Iraqi Weapon of Mass Destruction before 2003. If you really watch the documentary you claimed to watch, you should know they clearly know there was not such a weapon before they declared the Iraqi war.

    I certainly understand one has to investigate a lot with great effort before removing their dubiousness. Meanwhile, I don’t think it is a good idea to immediately conclude I provide disinformation without any instigation, especially for those who pay taxes but without getting any profits from all these kinds of secret wars.

    If it turn out that the fact part I provided is truth, is there a single decent explanation one can possibly conclude other than my speculation part?

    I guess I should be congratulated again for my longest reply even in this site?

    Like

  14. brightgrey,

    The problem is that FOARP is that wants ‘undeniable’ evidence that the CIA was helping Bin Laden and his goons to fight against the soviets. According to wikipedia, the US government says that they did not. So of course, we are supposed to believe that even though there is overwhelming circumstantial proof that prove otherwise.

    This is the same analogy about China helping out Cambodia during the Vietnam war. You can show all the proof you want, but as long as you don’t hear anything from the horses mouth (the Chinese government,) there’s no undeniable proof. Do I think that China helped out Cambodia? Yes. But I am not as anal as FOARP who seems dismissive about the CIA/Bin Laden connection as some kind of conspiracy and whined “Where’s the proof crap.”

    Like

  15. BTW Chinese involvement in Cambodia is also quite provable, especially after the recent trials.

    If you review my earlier posts, I have already acknowledge it, with notes that USA did something similar that Chinese government did in Cambodia of course in a smaller scale in China, but I am not sure a smaller scale all around other countries. If USA is a really dirty government, it is certainly not the only one.

    My question is, does the crime of Chinese government justified the murder of Chinese civilians in Tibet and Xinjiang? Similarly if it turn out to be true that USA army indeed killed tens of thousands civilians in Iraq, does it justified some one organize another 911 attack that kill Americans that have nothing to do with Iraq wars?

    In your dictionary, is there a word of innocent? Does the word mean people who did not involved in a crime that someone else committed, should not be responsible and punished for the crime? If in history there are some Jews killing others, does it justify Nazi killing the millions of Jews because they are not innocent?

    But if you don’t take the U.S.’s word for it I’m sure you can find admissions of involvement from the Khmer Rouge trials by CCP representatives and a bunch of other stuff. Heck – I even found an official report to congress over US involvement in Cambodia (regime funding in the form of aid and weapons deals).

    I do believe it is most likely to be true (no matter exaggerte or not) as much as I believe 911 attack really happened. I am well aware that CCP support Pol Bot(sp?) and I don’t really know how much they took part in massacre, I am sure they don’t have a clean hand.

    But I am a little surprised you mentioned this event when we are talking about Tibet and Xinjiang riots (no matter there is a massacre or not). If someone discussion the about Nazi massacre on Jews were break in by how some unrelated Jews commited murders tens of years ago, there would be similar surprise and suspect that that is a justification for Nazis.

    Is your heartfeltly mercy for Cobodian victims that make you remember the Communist massacre in Cododian at this moment. Do you mean USA have right revenge for victims in Cambodia by organizing a riot in Tibet? Do you get the authorized paper from the Cabodian victims for their revenge?

    In certainly don’t think nothing fros US congress is true. But
    if you really watch the documentary film I presented, you should know there are two kinds of victims in the Western political system, valuable victims and worthless victims. Apparently the victims in Cobodian and victims under Saddam Hussein are valuable in the Western because they were killed by someone that they want to topple down. Innocent Iraqi that killed by USA army are worthless to mention. Chinese propaganda machine works in the same way except the evaluations on particular victims.

    It does not make any sense to discuss about the victims if it is not based on mercy and compassionate for the victims, but only as a tool for attacking a certain of country. I am not interested in tolling down US or Chinese government at all. I am only interest to find the same tragedy happen and prevent further hatred between China and the rest of the world, provided the hatred is completely unnecessary. Do we have the same interest?

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  16. Zhao, I was talking to pug_ster and FOARP about the Cambodia stuff, not you. I have something for you below.

    pug_ster,

    Did you actually VISIT the link I posted? There were CIA documents on the US involvement in Afghanistan and from a quick skim they DID help the Taliban in the latter stages of the conflict, though no explicit mention of OBL was mentioned you can safely presume he must have been dealt with directly since he was leader of the Taliban at that moment in time. Thats official undeniable proof right there and it took me 5 mins.

    Second, CCP representatives during the Khmer Rouge trials from a few years back were made to issue statements regarding their involvement in the regime in court. Horses talk.

    FOARP is entirely reasonable in asking for proof and what I’m saying is proof ISN’T hard to find on these issues. I wonder if you’re both more interested in arguing than actually talking to the point.

    Zhao Fengnian,

    What I said to pug_ster goes for you too. I have a masters degree but I sure as hell don’t need it to dredge up a few documents online – you don’t even cite the news sources for your accusations. Nobody is asking for an exegesis here, a copy paste link will do just fine.

    Did you read my post on the skins? Let me copy and paste for you.

    “I was a bit curious about the baby skinning, so I did a little research. I’m personally quite interested in Tibetan religious ritual, and I’m well aware that human bodyparts are used for many things – though their magical power relies on a natural death and a range of criteria, which (to be optimistic) means that there is no reason for demand for the body parts of murdered children. The same rule applies for human skin, which is sometimes used in drums, shawls and other things, which (once again optimistically) rules out the murdering of children for religious practice.

    The only images of baby hides I could find were old black and white photographs seemingly taken pre 1950, i.e. the period where serfdom was still being practiced and the current Dalai Lama wasn’t in power. Its fairly well known that the serfs were treated terribly by their owners: mutilated and so on, so providing the children were actually murdered, it would have likely been by their owners. I found no connection between the skinnings and the Dalai Lama – present or past (though plenty of people blaming the current one for the photographs)”

    BTW I’ve had involvement with Chinese museums before and trust me, there are NO neutral experts in Chinese museums. In China museums are still explicitly obligated to serve the government. That said if that paper is genuine then it is certainly proof, but I haven’t found any evidence of its existence online. Maybe you could provide some?

    2.

    “Making riots under excuses of promoting democracy is not shocking you because the human life of those killed victims means nothing to you.”

    You miss my point. What I’m saying is that WE ALREADY KNOW these things have happened, because I’m not shocked but it doesn’t mean I’m indifferent or approve of these events. Being shocked how you feel when something unexpected happens. These things are not unexpected.

    3.

    “Nationalism is the sensation of being superior to other countries by virtue of having been born there. It might be useful for helping a population dump their critical thinking so their governments can pass action which would otherwise be couldn’t be, but I can’t exactly call lobotomizing a nation a good thing. Nationalism in ANY circumstance is indefensible.

    Perhaps my English is too poor to understand these terms. After 911, every corner in the world broadcast see Americans crying for the victims, showing angers to the terrorists so on. What’s name to describe this phenomenon? I don’t think most American feel sorrows, angers and fears because they think they are superior than others. Perhaps the west use patriotic? ”

    First of all use a dictionary. Secondly, the outpouring of sorrow is called empathy, not nationalism, and its not based in ethnicity or country.

    “Nationalism or not, we are not promoting Chinese to feel superior than any other countries, although the report from Ridio France label us this way.”

    Nationalism, by definition, is pride for one’s own country OVER that of another’s. Defensive nationalism is nationalism no different. People feel a need to defend their own country’s reputation because their nationality is part of their ego, and when that nationality gets attacked, they compensate by inflating their nationalism like a swelling bruise. You don’t need nationalism to defend justice or truth. If there is a news article which is untrue and slanderous, its bad because its not factual, not because it has insulted the dignity of your nation. In an ideal world people should think of themselves as autonomous communally responsible individuals, but they’re not, people in general are weak and pathetic and need to band together under arbitrary criteria to feel a sense of pride and security they otherwise wouldn’t have. Nation is one of those arbitrary criteria.

    4.

    ” Liu Xiao Bo, preached in a interview in Hong Kong that, western cololism is the neccssary driving force of democracy and freedom and China must become colony of the West for three hundred years in order to develop modern civilization. ”

    This is a common quote taken out of context, but my Chinese is too poor to make a really definite judgement in its interpretation, so feel free to correct me. From what I understand, Liu wasn’t condoning colonialism, what he was saying was that HK achieved far more under British imperial rule than China had under communist rule. In my opinion, economically and socially speaking he’s correct, its just a very awkward thing to say. In any case if you’re using this as evidence that Liu is some kind of imperialist thats absurd since Charter 08 was a call for democratic reform, not a return to imperialism. Additionally, in China’s constitution it stipulates the right of free speech to all citizens, and Liu is entirely within the law. Regardless of his opinion he still has a right to put it across, just as you have a right to disagree with him.

    If you could do me a favor please make your posts a little shorter and more to the point in the future.

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  17. “In certainly don’t think nothing fros US congress is true.”

    Well when they write a paper admitting their involvement in a secret war they previously denied then I think thats quite convincing.

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  18. brightgrey,

    I did read the links. The link about Cambodia didn’t quote from the CCP offical or the Chinese government, not that I don’t believe you.

    About CIA in Afghanistan. According to FOARP’s rant, he said Bin Laden was aided by Saudi Arabia and the CIA was helping a ‘separate’ group to fight Soviets and both of them didn’t help each other (yeah right.) The link contained some censored documents that did not mention anything about Bin Laden, but I would like to know what the censored stuff mentioned.

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  19. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Well, maybe in some odd ways, yes. But to me it seems the Chinese have a much stronger sort of nationalism that is more race based. To me it seems essentially racist.

    Hmm…. Chinese are racists who always do the bad things. That sounds quite familiar.

    You are talking with a Chinese racist who, although blaming some individual war mangers (correctly or not), believe most American people has nothing to do with the crime (if the crime exist). While you seem to suggest China are constructed by a butch of racists. Yet you think you are the only one among us who is not the nationalist.

    For example can you imagine the Chinese allowing immigration of white people and letting them hold power like being a governor or something?

    No at a near future but not because of racism as you suggested, but because of particular history.

    Back to 100 years ago, Almost entire is a special type of colony for various powerful western countries. English, France, Germany, USA and later Japan. Like all the colonies elsewhere on earth, all those uninvited foreigners are superior race than Chinese. They have their own “rented terrory” inside China in which they have their own government and legal system. It is not so often that they killed local residents but they do have right to do so without punishment. There is a sign preserved in a Muesum in Shanghai that written “Chinese and Dogs is not allowed to enter this area”. You can imagine most Chinese are familiar with it because this is a good tool for CCP propaganda after they took over China.

    In those years, although white people are everywhere in China, but except some missionaries most of them live like Kings and don’t bother mix up with local Chinese people who mostly live in poverty.

    The white population in China decreases dramatically during WWII because Japaness occupied China and except a small amount of Germany, all the other white countries are enemy of Japan. So that white people had to flee away if they don’t want to be captured by Japaness (most of captured westerners were turtrored before they were killed)/

    After WWII, westerner are far less ethusiastic to come back to China not only because it was not really colony that can give the same privilege any more, but also their property in China were destroyed by the war so that most of them can not make a better life in China than in USA and Europe. So except missionaries of Christianity, there might some rich capitalists move in to China, but China almost immediately broke civil wars between communists and KMT (the latter flee and stay in Taiwan). To your surprise, both USA and USSR supported communists one way or another, because it is much weaker. KMT was very easy to eliminiate the communist but USA use all the means to prevent it happens and make the communists as a powerfull force that can not be eliminated by KMT. They tried make China ruled separately by two equivalent forces like South and North Korea/Vietnam, or East/West Germany.

    But the game of balance were not played well because of some tatic mistake under pressure from USA, so when the communists unexpectedly took over the all mainland China, it was too late for USA to support KMT. But it is enough to stablize KMT who fled to Taiwan, that is why we saw two China before the Taiwan independent movement secretly under control of by USA today.

    The revolution changed the population structure of white people changed again in China, because communist view all the rich capitalists as enemy, while almost all the white people were the richest in China, except missionaries. Not only white rich people, but also Chinese richest Chinese people flee to HongKong or Taiwain because they worry they might be executed. (Such massive execution did not really happen but it indeed happen in Soviet and in the very early ages when communist international send their people to build up communist in China in a similar way Chinese communists built up in Cobodia or elsewhere).

    Western missionaries (all over China at that time) did not have to flee away for this reason and most of them didn’t, however, in Communists theory religions are the tools for imperialists, also US and China broke the Korean war that make the new regime feel more dangerous, so that the missionaries were expelled within a few years.

    In 50s, there were also white people but they came from Russia and East Europe. There were not so many simply because China was an extremely poor country, after various wars for nearly 100 years. It was not so attractive business for those in well developed European communist countries. Even the European communist are very welcome but the privilege that offered in the colonist ages does not exist in the communist system.

    Since 1960s, Mao Ze Dong suddenly decide to become enemies of both Soviet Union and his brother countries for some reasons. So the only white people are not welcome any more. There are black people in China that perhaps Chinese government want them to export revolutions. But they are only the political guys rather than ordinary people that has nothing to do with immigrations. For white races, there were also some Romaians or Albanians comrades in China.

    China became completely isolated for nearly 20 years from the rest of the world until Mao Ze Dong died in late 70s. After 80s, there are more and more foreigners visit China, but the immigrations were barely seen in the first few years. I bet you would be shocked if you knew how poor Chinese were in those ages, it is not so strange any one from rich western countries are interested to immigrate into this place. Do we see many Americans immigrate to Somali or Ethuabiam

    At this moment China has been changed quite a bit, although I think the development in China might a bit exaggerated in West. but it is indeed many westerner made a lot of money here. However, it is not a comfortable country to live. Comparing to White people spread every where in the world from Europe, Chinese are stayed in the same place for thousands years and population density is many times higher than most western countries. There are lack of waters, lack of electricities. Because lack of space, the price of a small apartment in Beijing is even higher than a big house USA.

    You are more than welcome to immigrate here. I am sure you find yourself very popular but I suspect you won’t stay very long, but because any racists will expel you, but because you will get home sick. One can see Americans now everywhere in China. Now I can see westerners everywhere in China most likely not lucky enough including those from CIA, I guess most of them are very rich and at least can afford to spend their vacations back home in US, where they enjoy a much more comfortable life.

    There indeed a dangerous perhaps racists moment for westerners, that is during the Tibet riots. An American in Shanghai told me in Anti-CNN that he was insulted by some Chinese. In fact this American compassonat the victim very much and is disgusted by the distorted reports in the western media. It is indeed an attack based on race, but I won’t be so hurry to call the entire China as racist country. I myself read reports that some Americans throws stones to Muslims but I won’t call the entire American as a racist country, unless I plan to demonize US for instigating Chinese to launch a war against it.

    As far as I know, China now indeed now become attractive enough for some white immigrants and change their nationality into Chinese, not from USA but from Russia. After Soviet Union collopas. Many of Russian military industry was destroyed under pressure of USA who gave them some empty promise of economical support that never realize. For this reason some of their enginor become extremely poor and have problem to become earn bread for their families. A fairly large amount of them chose come to China, and according to some rumors that I did not confirm, they love China more and work harder than Chinese colleages. They are not doubtely treated very well and become very popular. They are not governor of course but I guess some of them become senior officer in PLA.

    Now I guess you don’t feel very strange why in recently China suddenly is able to make modern powerful weapons such as stealth fighters. US force them to move Sovient Industry into China while they destroyed Russian ones but without their promised compensation. On internet some one work for the army airport said they saw these “white”, most likely Russians, during the test of the stealth flighter. I suspect that they can work so well in a country where they found full of racists.

    It is the the same reason I don’t feel strange why color revolution failed in Russia while successful in East Europe. There are documentary exist in Youtube how American politicians use dirty tricks for those revolutions.

    Anyway, you might have different judgement from the same story, but FMPOV, the phenomenon you mentioned is simply due to the special background modern Chinese history, rather than racism as you suggested.

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  20. pug_ster,

    Jiang Yu is certainly a horse, even if she behaves like a goat sometimes.

    If FOARP said that, then he’s wrong. The Taliban formed in the latter stages of the war against the Soviets and received CIA funding. Not sure about the Saudi funding.

    Zhao Fengnian,

    Even according to your very long explanation, thats STILL racism.

    Like

  21. @Bright Grey, Pugster –

    “The problem is that FOARP is that wants ‘undeniable’ evidence that the CIA was helping Bin Laden and his goons to fight against the soviets”

    No. I’m asking you produce any credible evidence of a US-Bin laden link. you can use People’s Daily if you like, or Pravda, or Wikileaks, or any source you like so long as it has some level of credibility. However, the basic thing is that a lot of people have been over this, many of them with no reason to love the US, but no-one has come forward with evidence showing such a link.

    @Bright grey –

    “Why not google?”

    I think Pugster’s worked that one out already. it’s just that the docs you’ve got up there don’t show a Bin Laden-US link. They show a US-Mujahideen link which is not what is at issue.

    The thing which makes a US-Bin Laden link particularly dubious is that he and his group were notorious for trying to kill every ‘infidel’ that fell into their hands. This included journalists working for the BBC (as John Simpson described in his book A Mad World My Masters) and US outlets. Similarly, a lot of the people who knew Bin Laden and his group are now working for the Kabul government could have acted to discredit him by coming forward to talk about his US links. They haven’t, and this reinforces the idea that there was no link.

    By the way, the Taliban didn’t even exist as a religious movement until 1991, and not as an armed militia until 1994, so it would have been pretty difficult for the US to support them against the Soviets. It may well be (I haven’t checked but it seems likely)that there are docs out there showing that many of the Islamist groups fighting the Soviets were supported by the US, but not the Arab groups, and not Bin Laden’s group, and not the Taliban per se because they didn’t exist at that point.

    I think the misunderstanding came down to this sentence:

    “CIA covert action worked through Pakistani intelligence services to reach Afghani rebel groups. That operation began after December 1979, when Russian forces mounted a surprise intervention in Afghanistan. Fighting between CIA-funded Afghans and the Russians with their Khalq allies continued through 1988. At that time Moscow, having suffered substantial losses and incurred excessive costs in the country, decided to withdraw. The last Soviet forces left Afghanistan in early 1989, but warfare continued as the rebel forces contested with the Khalq regime for control of Kabul.

    The CIA ended its aid in 1992, the Russians sometime later, and the pro-Russian government in Kabul fell. In the final stages of that struggle the Taliban began to emerge as a major force in Afghan politics and it subsequently drove the Northern Alliance from Kabul, confining the remnants of the original rebel alliance to a small enclave in the north-eastern part of the country. “

    “That conflict” appears to refer to the Afghan civil war, during which the Taliban “began to emerge as a major force” around 1994, not the war against the Soviets. Neither the piece, nor any of the documents in the archive, assert US support for the Taliban. Yes, a lot of the weapons pumped into the country by the US ended up in Taliban hands. Yes, a lot of guys the US worked with ended up in the ranks of the Taliban. But none of this shows a US-Taliban link.

    I did write a long post with a bunch of links in it on the Cambodian issue, but it’s still held in moderation further up the thread. However, here’s an excerpt from a piece published in Time Magazine in October, 1978:

    “A full-scale attempt to take over Phnom-Penh might well bring Viet Nam into direct conflict with Cambodia’s formidable ally, China. But some analysts doubt that Pol Pot can rely heavily on Peking. In the past month he has sent emissaries to China with pleas for supplementary military aid. Though he has received gratifying messages from Chairman Hua Kuo-feng (“We support your struggle”), no substantial increase in aid has been forthcoming. Diplomatic observers in Southeast Asia believe that if the Pol Pot regime should be toppled by Viet Nam or by a coup d’etat, Peking would withdraw from Cambodia, cutting its losses while attributing the defeat to the weaknesses of an unworthy ally.”

    There you go. Hua Guo Feng, Chinese leader, quoted as saying “We support your struggle” to a Khmer Rouge representative described as having been sent to request additional aid to that already sent, from a country described by the author, a journalist working at a credible publication, as a “formidable ally” of Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

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  22. I’m glad this has swung around to speaking directly to sources instead of hypotheticals.

    Hmm yeah I did read that sentence incorrectly. Ok then colour me corrected.

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  23. @brightgrey

    Even according to your very long explanation, thats STILL racism.

    Are you the lord that God send to earth to judge people in this world?

    For many people racism must be opposed because it lead disaster such ethnic genocide on millions of people. People oppose racism because they want to all human being live together peacefully on earth instead of killing each other.

    But in this world, there are indeed some ones who oppose racism as an excuse to do something bad on these “bad guys”, even those “bad guys” never offend them in any way, exactly, as we see someone brought disasters to Iraq using the WMD as an excuse.

    Whether to have mercy on innocent victims is the marking difference between these two types of opposition. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. (Matthews 12). judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (Jas 2)

    But I guess the above the words are crap for you, right?

    If you sincerely believe your so-called Chinese racism will make similar disaster like what Nazi did to Jewish people, you should certainly continue your fight against them. But if you have any interests in peace on this earth in this case, it is a good idea to examine carefully before you make your judgement.

    If you happen to be the second type, no one, at least no Chinese can stop you either. It will certainly instigate more hatred as you wish, but there is no garanttee it end up with something good to you or any other Americans. Look what German people got after they eliminate their “evil Jews”.

    To my knowledge, the word “evil” originally means something that caused bloody disaster. Perhaps in your dictionary it means someone that you have right to bring disaster to?

    Anyway, you are in better position to know why you are so enthusiastic again “Chinese racism”. Take care.

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  24. You have completely and utterly misunderstood me. I never said Chinese were racist, what I was saying is that your explanation of why Chinese aren’t racist had the opposite effect. Rationalizing or placing racism within a historical context doesn’t mean it stops being racism.

    Besides that I have NO idea what you’re talking about whatsoever, and it seems you don’t have any idea of what I’m saying either. I’m not sure if you’re lost in translation or if you’re just interpreting what I’m writing however you please out of your own preconceptions about what my opinions are, but unless you can stay on a single point and start writing something I can actually understand then we can’t actually talk seriously at all.

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  25. FOARP,

    There you go. Hua Guo Feng, Chinese leader, quoted as saying “We support your struggle” to a Khmer Rouge representative described as having been sent to request additional aid to that already sent, from a country described by the author, a journalist working at a credible publication, as a “formidable ally” of Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

    Sorry, that proof is not solid enough because it came from Time magazine and not from the Chinese government. Carter’s National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski said that they don’t want to be seen helping Cambodia, and encouraged China to do it. I think it was probably done thru a false flag operation or perhaps China turning a blind eye when US did it.

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  26. FOARP,

    FYI, I don’t know where you get that quote “We support your struggle” from, but if you can provide a link. Also, it is no secret that China had diplomatic relations with the Khmer Rouge, but no proof that they provided aid.

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  27. Sure is tl;dr buttrage in here

    M4 is trash, deal with it. It’s time to make a real Chinese media outlet that the world’s mainstream viewers can accept.

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  28. I apologize to all for reigniting this now ridiculously long thread but I just wanted to respond to zhao fengnian about his movie link http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/00_rFBhQoO0/

    @zhao fengnian
    I’ve managed to watch the movie you linked to. It is very good, a good source of information that more Americans need to see. But if I think that movie is good and I disagree with you, what does that tell you?

    Here’s the thing. It was made by Westerns for a Western audience. Do you see how this works? It’s called freedom of the press, something that doesnt exist in China. In the West, there is a constant struggle to get at the truth and people are free to expose things. It’s not always perfect and it is messy and it never ends but there can be no other way.

    Can you imagine a film being made like this about the lies or propaganda being made exposing the CCP government in China? No, you cant because it would never be shown and anyone who made it would be put into jail. And that is where things like the CCP jailing people like Liu XiaoBo comes in. He, and other Chinese are fighting for a China where people have the freedom to make these kinds of videos and yet, people like you and pugster support the Chinese government’s treatment of him and other human rights defenders, lawyers, etc.

    Even if Chinese people mostly disagree with someone like that, he should never be put in jail just for writing about the need for political reform. It makes China weaker. Why would you want that? The CCP has brainwashed Chinese people into thinking that the CCP EQUALS the Chinese nation. Most people, when they criticize China, are criticizing the CCP controlled government. Why is that concept so hard for you nationalist types? The Government DOESNT equal the People.

    Like many people have pointed out here, nobody is saying that there isnt bias or lies or propaganda coming from the US government or even some Western news organizations. The difference, and this is critical to my point, is that at least here in the West we can talk about it and expose it without fear of going to jail. There is a measure of self-correction in the system, however flawed it may be (the Iraq invasion for example) but Chinese people CANNOT do the same thing IN China. That’s the difference.

    You can find the most outrageous things being said by Americans about the world or the US government, like it should be destroyed or all black people or Asian people should be killed etc. These people are crazy or evil or whatever but they have the right, the freedom to say those things. In China, people can not say things like that, for example that Tibet should be an independent country or whatever. The government wont allow it, that’s the main point.

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  29. the outpouring of sorrow is called empathy, not nationalism, and its not based in ethnicity or country.

    Isn’t patriotism in USA based on country? Do we see the same pouring sorrow for hundreds thousands of Iraqi victims caused by the war, as we see for the American victims in 911 attack? Why don’t you blame patriotism in USA as nationalism but so enthusiastically blame the so-called Chinese nationalism?

    Apparently you are applying double standards to people based on their nationalities! Isn’t it true that the most significant character of racism is applying different standards to different people based on their ethnic, race or country? Who is the racist?

    The blur definitions of nationalism, proud etc, can be manipulated to thousands meanings for making illusions, The illusion can make any one, who is not harmful to others at all, looks like evil murders so that they can be identified as enemies whenever you find profits. Nazi, who promoted proud of Germany, murdered million of innocent Jewish. Most the other countries promote patriotism of their own country without any intention to attack any others. By giving the same name “nationalism” to two completely different thing, you could make illusion that any country with patriotism as evil as Nazi so that it is perfect justified to identify them as enemy and invade them any time you find profits to do so.

    The similar word game was used for invading Iraq. Al Quada killed thousands Americans so it is a threat. Sadam was also a threat so the some one in US made an illusion that Sadam will make similar or bigger disaster to American people to deceive them for supporting the invasion. The word “link” (between Iraq and Al Quada) that could means a thousand things was also manipulated for the illusion, This whole idea of the manipulation is to deceive western people to support any blood war for the profits of those elites, who invented the word game. It is a typical PSYOP propaganda that we saw during the wars that NATO or US launched these years.

    ,The center idea of Universal Value, the modern western religion is that, West, which is actually controlled by a small group of war mangers, is the lord who have right to define what is evil. As a lord you don’t need to give any argument to say nationalism is evil. You did not give any argument to identify any Chinese as racist because whatever lord said is truth. West have right to force any other countries to accept their invented religion.

    Under the invented religion, if Sadam Hussein did not allow elections in Iraq, it is abuse of human right, it is perfectly justified to beat him in a price that hundreds of thousands civilians lost their right to live on the earth.

    Under the universal values, the lord can decide al-Gaddafi is evil because his army killed “innocent civilians” when cracking down his rebels, so that it is perfectly justified to kill his grand children under 10 years old (and many other “un-innocent civilians”), as MaCain claimed a few days ago.

    Here the word “innocent civilians” was manipulated to what so ever the lord defines, as well as the word “nationalism”. So when the western media judged Chinese nationalism, it is not strange at all to find out something similar such as double stands in the wars of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and many others that NATO or US launched since the Cold War is over.

    But based on the demonization of various issues, such as so-called nationalism, abuse of human rights etc and the various riots that NED publically supported, apparently China is in the candidate list of “enemies”, hopefully ranked in a low position if Chinese are lucky.

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  30. Liu wasn’t condoning colonialism, what he was saying was that HK achieved far more under British imperial rule than China had under communist rule.

    I was very touched when Iraqi parliament recently decided to compensate US 400 millions USD, despite of hundred thousands of killed Iraqis can not expect any compensations. I am not sure all the old-days-imperialisms killed civilians as man as in the Iraqi democratic reform.

    The same touching international friendship would be expected if Liu Xiao-Po and other dissidents of employed by western “human right” organizations could form a Chinese parliament after a democratic reform supported by US army.

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  31. @DSLAM on May 9, 2011 at 02:58

    what does that tell you?

    It tells me that I was not the only one who said some elites in the West try to launch wars all the time for profits. It is a response for your comments on my opinion that China might be in their queue (hopefully behind the first a few one), based on the similar propaganda from Western media.

    Here’s the thing. It was made by Westerns for a Western audience. Do you see how this works? It’s called freedom of the press, something that doesnt exist in China. In the West, there is a constant struggle to get at the truth and people are free to expose things. It’s not always perfect and it is messy and it never ends but there can be no other way.

    It is true that China is lack of press freedom (no matter how much). However, I won’t to see China pay the same price of hundreds thousands lives and millions homeless, in order to get that freedom. I think West have an extremely distorted “Universal Value” that press freedom is more important than value of human lives. Western countries love to promote the “freedom” with cost of massive lives in other weak countries. This value and cost is not acceptable in China IMO.

    Can you imagine a film being made like this about the lies or propaganda being made exposing the CCP government in China?

    No, but I also can’t imagine China launch wars by every president as the US did. If we can get better press freedom of course it is nice, but peace and safety of human lives are far more important at least for Chinese. We have already seen the results after US or NATO realized “press freedom and democracy” in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and many other countries outside Europe. We have also seen the dead bodies in the riots in China that NED publically funded, and how West media reported. So we know the consequence if China is open to their promotions.

    BTW, about 140 years ago, US was already a democratic country with press freedom, while a huge number of native Indians were genocide. If the press of freedom can not stop massive killing on innocent people by that country, what is the advantage? The faith of “free-speech-is-higher-than-peace” in the West is terrible for me, and I believe, also for majority of Chinese.

    If some one promises to give better press freedom but do not care massive people being killed in your own country, would you accept his idea? At least, US captured some Chinese terrorists who fight in the war of Afghanistan and sent to Guantana prison. These guys committed terrorism in China under support by USA before 911. After they were released from Guatana, no countries in the West dare to accept them as refugees.

    Further more, does the so-called press freedom in West really help to reveal truth? At least about the riot in China that I know so much, all the reports in major stream of the West are nothing but lies. The public in the West were completely deceived. There are indeed reports that tell truth in West and the reporters were not persecuted as in China. However, it never reached general public. The so-called press freedom in the West is very an illusion for many things.

    What is the driving force of Sen. Liebaman and other US politicians so enthusiastically care about internet freedom more than freedom of Wikileaks. Is it because their caring happiness of Chinese people? We know how they care about the happiness of Iraqi any way so at least I don’t recommend this kindness for China myself.

    Even if Chinese people mostly disagree with someone like that, he should never be put in jail just for writing about the need for political reform. It makes China weaker.

    1) I agree to you that speech freedom helps to decrease corruptions but I don’t care it makes China stronger or not. I don’t hope China become as strong as US and launch war every a few years to sell our values, even if no terrorists attacking back our civilians. I would be mad if the Iraqis were killed by Chinese instead of US army. Fortunately it is not the case. If the war crimes must exist on earth, at least they should not be committed by Chinese
    2) I do hope China could have democracy and better speech freedom but not in the same manner Iraq and Afghanistan.
    3) I agree it might be unnecessary to put Liu Xiao-bo in jail. But his Nobel peace prize is not really for peace, but toppling down Chinese regime. I don’t really like our regime, however, the current regime in Iraq seem to be much worse. The western media is trying to push China to become Iraq-like. Their malign is not much better than Nazi propaganda in my eyes.
    4) Some western elites employed a lot of puppet dissidents like Liu Xiao Bo, (partly with the tax you paid). The puppets make protests and sometimes commit violence to provoke Chinese regime arrest them, so that western media report China abuse human rights. Western politicians push Chinese regime to allow these puppets to make riots. If China give them up, stronger riots will come until those western elites take over China via their puppets.
    5) There are a lot of other “human right activists” like Liu Xiao-Bo in China. While they so enthusiastically promote “speech freedom and human right” in China, they never criticized the persecution on Manning and Wikileaks with a single word. They enthusiastically praised the war of Iraq and Afghanistan because they think the wars brought democracy and human right to those countries. However none of these Chinese human right activists ever criticize the tortures of prisoners and they never express any empathy to those killed civilians with a single words. That is how we find out they are just employed puppets, especially after we know their financial grants come from western “human right organizations” or “culture companies”.
    6) The dissidents don’t live in West so they know in hell how civilians were killed in Tibet and Xinjiang riot, however they never express any empathy and blame the murders with a single words. That is also the reason I don’t think these professional activists are really promoting human right and democracy, but just help western elites to take over China. I also guess the western elites are the real kings who rule the West media and perhaps even government. Western politicians serve their interests instead of western people on these issues.
    7) All these Chinese “dissidents” have a close relation with Western media and politicians. They planned protest together and their protest is nothing but a drama performance like the drama “Iraqi civilians” welcome US army in Bagdad. During the Arab revolution a few months ago, some dissents organized a protest for promoting similar revolution in China. The US ambassador even appeared at the protest place with a dark glass. He was occasionally recognized by a civilian, who put his video of the US officer on Youtube.
    8) These dissidents indeed attracted a lot of sympathizers who don’t trust Chinese media, including myself, but only before the Tibet riots. They are not popular in China any more. Especially, the Nobel Peace Prize is a disaster in terms of public relation for this group of guys.

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  32. @zhao fengnian

    I’m sorry but you’re living in a fantasy land. You’re sounding like a broken record with this NED and Western media conspiracy stuff. There are so many inaccuracies I just dont have the time to address them all. Your reasoning is that of a 7 year old child, you’re missing the larger points. You have one belief and nothing can change it, it’s like a religion.

    Either that or you are paid by the CCP or something. This would actually make more sense, and it would mean there is hope. Otherwise it is just too depressing.

    Either way, I cant waste any more time on it, it is pointless.

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  33. @Pugster – You see, since I said where I got it from (Time Magazine, October 1978), you should know where you can find it. It is also one of my sources for showing Chinese supply of arms and support. But I don’t really need to show that kind of link, even though I have, because China’s invasion of Vietnam in support of Pol Pot is well-known.

    For the links – well, I just need Custer to approve the comment which has been stuck in moderation since the 7th of May.

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  34. Zhao Fengnian,

    Agreements or disagreements aside, you clearly don’t understand ANYTHING ANYONE here has said. Feel free to continue arguing with the imaginary brightgrey in your own time. Clearly you’re only interested in one way broadcast of your half baked opinions, not in actually talking to anyone here.

    FOARP,

    maybe its because you added in too many links into the post. I think it happened to me before.

    Like

  35. @DSLAM on May 9, 2011 at 07:52

    A religion means one believe something without any proving. I present all my argument trying to prove my point. It is you who only give conclusion without any argument. Look like you expect Chinese to believe you unconditionally.

    Fantasy means one believe something never happened. The riots and kill victims in China has been reported in Chinese media in detail. The public support of NED for the rioters has been reported in Western media publicly. The report that NED officer complain they don’t have enough money for support a extensive uprising are also be found from western media.

    There are also some publications written by the dissidents themselves about how dissidents are fanancially by foreign “huamn rights” fundation.

    All the things about Iraq in my argument can be found in western media.

    For all the issue it is you who believe they never exist without any arguments.

    Concerning your hope, I think I am more friendly to western countries than most Chinese, but you need to investigate yourself. What is your hope BTW, making a democratic China? Isn’t it enough to make democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    Like

  36. @brightgrey

    Talking means presenting argument for your points if some one don’t understand why you are right. I did present a lot of arguments and it makes my posts terribly long.

    Asking some one to accept your idea unconditionally is not called talking, but commanding. It seems that is the way you used. Did you ever present any argument to prove you are right?

    BTW, I think I do understand what you mean. I just don’t agree, and present too many argument to tell the reason. I am open to accept your idea if you can present convincing reasons argument, however, you just presented idea without reasoning.

    You are probably the only one among us who don’t understand what the dissident is talking about.

    BTW, taking idea without reasoning is called religion or faith.

    Like

  37. @Pugster – You see, since I said where I got it from (Time Magazine, October 1978), you should know where you can find it. It is also one of my sources for showing Chinese supply of arms and support. But I don’t really need to show that kind of link, even though I have, because China’s invasion of Vietnam in support of Pol Pot is well-known.

    Wrong again. Time magazine’s proof is as good as president Bush says that Saddam brought yellowcake from Nigeria, this is just hearsay. China’s invasion of Vietnam does not mean China is directly giving financial aid to Cambodia.

    Like

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